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Author Topic: Imprecise Language, Confusion and Conflation  (Read 1352 times)

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Online zirconia

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Re: Imprecise Language, Confusion and Conflation
« Reply #60 on: January 24, 2020, 03:56:00 AM »
Megan,

I'm sad that you feel open discussion of personal feelings related to the participants' individual conditions to be bigoted. Each one of us does have different needs. To deny that would be a lie—and deceit in discussion meant to be constructive would render it useless.

My need, for example is to be assimilated into society as just another woman. That feeling has been present since I was less than three years old, grown stronger by the day, and on hormones it has become absolutely overpowering. From what I wrote earlier in this thread you may see that I cannot regard myself as a woman until my body is brought into as close alignment with those of my sisters as possible. When asked by Linde how someone in her position would fit into the world I live in—well, don't you think answering a question like that with untruths would be disrespectful?

What I told her obviously doesn't mean that I don't also respect the choices of cross dressers, transvestites, Albanian sworn virgins, the okama and any other subgroup of the transgender "umbrella" you may imagine. They simply are different than I, and follow a different path.

However, does that mean I should speak untruths about how the women in my world would feel about anyone with a penis enter their bathing spaces? Don't you think that falsely stating they'd be welcomed as women despite the anatomical differences would potentially cause more harm than good?


I feel open and honest discussion to be important for two reasons. More, perhaps—but these are personal.

One is that without it individual thought is stifled. If one only ever ingests what is politically correct it is easy to end up like my friend who never looks at what my needs are, and only regurgitates whatever he has been spoon-fed throughout his life. When I'm the one on whom he regurgitates it, it hurts.

The other is much more crucial. The very same spoon-fed  "we're all the same/valid/word de jour" dialog ended up smothering my hope to become what I need to be for years—because nothing I ever saw gave me even the slightest confidence that it was possible. It was often even disparaged.

You see, humans are animals biologically programmed to want to reproduce, just like all other sexually dimorphic animals are. As such while people may become more polite and accepting, that will never mean someone deemed not female will be seen by other humans as female. For that to happen I must change myself—not society. I now know that to be a much more realistic and practical goal.

And had anyone been open about this being feasible when I most desperately needed the information, I'd probably now be living happily as a woman, very probably married, and pursuing my dreams, instead of only now trying to reach what may yet be possible. The cost would have been much lower, and the returns certain. As things stood, diversity was what everyone tried to feed me, although all I needed and longed for was normalcy.


Now, let me state once again that I do accept diversity. Just not in myself. And that acceptance doesn't mean I feel diversity equates to homogeneosity. Actually what brought me here was the fact that my attempt elsewhere to emphasize the importance of recognizing and accepting such differences only resulted in grief, consternation and censure.

We are all different. I believe in acceptance and recognition of those differences. And in honesty, and in freedom of thought and expression...

Online Katie

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Re: Imprecise Language, Confusion and Conflation
« Reply #61 on: January 24, 2020, 05:13:03 AM »
This thread and the close-minded views of those posting in it are exactly why many here aren't  wanted elsewhere.

My greatest concern is that someone starting out on understanding their gender identity will find this place and fall foul to the bigoted puritanism that breeds here.

Take my advice, for the sake of others. Migrate this site into a private FB group. There you can help each other reinforce your narrow world view without hurting others.

An entire thread concerened with attacking the TOS of this very site, it's hilarious if not downright sad.

Hi, Devlyn,
Thank you for visiting and introducing yourself.

I invite you to review our site Rules and Standards, located at https://www.transrefuge.org/index.php/topic,12.0.html.

Please understand that there is no rule against discussion of cross dressing, nor are there any rules against holding any particular belief on the nature of being transgender. We allow the discussion of all views, so long as the discussion remains respectful.

As a new member, I wish you a great experience on the website and ask that you share our vision of open and respectful dialogue.

Sincerely,
Katie
"Some want to live within the sound
Of church or chapel bell;
I want to run a rescue shop,
Within a yard of hell".
C.T. Studd

"Redeeming love has been my theme,
and shall be till I die".
William Cowper

Offline Megan

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Re: Imprecise Language, Confusion and Conflation
« Reply #62 on: January 24, 2020, 05:37:34 AM »
Hi, Devlyn,
Thank you for visiting and introducing yourself.

I invite you to review our site Rules and Standards, located at https://www.transrefuge.org/index.php/topic,12.0.html.

Please understand that there is no rule against discussion of cross dressing, nor are there any rules against holding any particular belief on the nature of being transgender. We allow the discussion of all views, so long as the discussion remains respectful.

As a new member, I wish you a great experience on the website and ask that you share our vision of open and respectful dialogue.

Sincerely,
Katie

Wrong guess Katie, you shouldn't steal data from other places where you were entrusted with its safekeeping.

I wonder how safe other people's data is here??

Online Katie

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Re: Imprecise Language, Confusion and Conflation
« Reply #63 on: January 24, 2020, 06:52:08 AM »
Steal data? You are the first person to introduce themself here by mentioning the nomenclature of a widely known admin from another site. Your IP address is registered in the same country as that admin. Easy case of mistaken identity. And, no, it is not stealing data to view and research your IP address. It is common practice on any website of this nature. Most websites have admins who screen new member IP addresses for spammers and such. Ours is no different.
"Some want to live within the sound
Of church or chapel bell;
I want to run a rescue shop,
Within a yard of hell".
C.T. Studd

"Redeeming love has been my theme,
and shall be till I die".
William Cowper

Online Katie

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Re: Imprecise Language, Confusion and Conflation
« Reply #64 on: January 24, 2020, 06:56:18 AM »
I wonder how safe other people's data is here??

It's as safe as any website using Simple Machines software.

Which has been a source of ongoing concern for me. I have been considering swapping to a more secure forum software given what I have learned about SMF.
"Some want to live within the sound
Of church or chapel bell;
I want to run a rescue shop,
Within a yard of hell".
C.T. Studd

"Redeeming love has been my theme,
and shall be till I die".
William Cowper

Offline MadameDuFromage

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Re: Imprecise Language, Confusion and Conflation
« Reply #65 on: January 24, 2020, 07:08:47 AM »
Considering how the staff at the other site routinely read "private" messages, it can't be much worse here.  Besides, both sites are visible to search engines and such which makes every post public domain.


I am still struggling to see the bigotry here though.  What I'm seeing is a disagreement with lumping groups together on this site.

Online Katie

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Re: Imprecise Language, Confusion and Conflation
« Reply #66 on: January 24, 2020, 07:29:59 AM »
There is no bigotry in this thread, only differences of opinion. Nobody is breaking any rules and we encourage members to discuss their differences in civilized discourse. That is one of the purposes of a discussion forum: to discuss topics among peers of varying worldviews.
"Some want to live within the sound
Of church or chapel bell;
I want to run a rescue shop,
Within a yard of hell".
C.T. Studd

"Redeeming love has been my theme,
and shall be till I die".
William Cowper

Online Dena

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Re: Imprecise Language, Confusion and Conflation
« Reply #67 on: January 24, 2020, 07:52:56 AM »
This thread and the close-minded views of those posting in it are exactly why many here aren't  wanted elsewhere.

My greatest concern is that someone starting out on understanding their gender identity will find this place and fall foul to the bigoted puritanism that breeds here.

Take my advice, for the sake of others. Migrate this site into a private FB group. There you can help each other reinforce your narrow world view without hurting others.

An entire thread concerened with attacking the TOS of this very site, it's hilarious if not downright sad.

Wrong guess Katie, you shouldn't steal data from other places where you were entrusted with its safekeeping.

I wonder how safe other people's data is here??

With your heritage this may be a difficult concept for you to understand but we have something called the First Amendment. It allows for the freedom of speech not only about ideas you agree with but those you don't agree with. If you unable to present an argument that's strong enough to overcome the other argument, perhaps you should examine your own view points. Maybe they are wrong or perhaps you need to work on presentation to make your argument more effective.

I spend over 4 years on the other site suppressing part of what I am because I felt the help I offered was more important that making my view point known in those areas. If I wanted to discuss those view points, I would go off to another web site and do it there. It's difficult seeing ideas you believe in being trashed with false information but it was a trade off that I made willingly.

A heavy hand on view points can have an effect on a web site. Ever wonder why the other site normally runs about 10 guests to every member? Some of the reason may have to do with fear but a good deal is the lack of freedom of speech. People can go to Reddit and say what ever they want but they use the other place only as an information resource. They don't need an account to do that as the search and organizaion of the site makes it easy to find what they need. This is also the primary reason why you don't see young people as they want to escape the restrictions of their parents and aren't interested in dealing with another set of restrictions.

As for Katie, as far as I can tell she hasn't used anything she learned as a staff member to advance this site other than what can be viewed as a member. In my case, I have contacts I have acquired over the years and that was the only thing that was available to me after the ban was placed. I didn't even have a copy of my book marks. I have used the knowledge I gained but remember that I paid 14,000 hours of my labor to gain that knowledge. I would consider that a fair trade unless somebody wants to offer me about $200,000 for my labor and my slence and it's a bargain even at that rate.

Regardless of what you have been told. Up to the moment I was banned, my goal was alway to help the other site survive and prosper. Even my subscription was active until after I was banned and I was told to turn off the paypal payment.  The site left me and I didn't leave the site. I figure if they didn't want my money or my labor, I am not going to force it on them.

Offline MadameDuFromage

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Re: Imprecise Language, Confusion and Conflation
« Reply #68 on: January 24, 2020, 08:25:42 AM »
Perhaps I'm reading a bit too far into this but: a member of the staff from the other site, (or a spouse thereof) coming here and proclaiming "you're a bunch of bigots and should give up" is rather telling...

Online Dena

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Re: Imprecise Language, Confusion and Conflation
« Reply #69 on: January 24, 2020, 08:49:28 AM »
Perhaps I'm reading a bit too far into this but: a member of the staff from the other site, (or a spouse thereof) coming here and proclaiming "you're a bunch of bigots and should give up" is rather telling...
I know writing styles and I have no reason to doubt that Megan is at the keyboard. What is said beyond the keyboard, I have no knowledge of that nor should I. Megan has a right to speak her own mind as does Devlyn should she chose to join the site. I only hope is that what Megan says is what she truly believes.

Online Lady Sarah

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Re: Imprecise Language, Confusion and Conflation
« Reply #70 on: January 24, 2020, 10:34:49 AM »
I know writing styles and I have no reason to doubt that Megan is at the keyboard. What is said beyond the keyboard, I have no knowledge of that nor should I. Megan has a right to speak her own mind as does Devlyn should she chose to join the site. I only hope is that what Megan says is what she truly believes.

Oh Lord, please keep Devlyn out of here. Once this place fills up with extremist right wing politics, I'll be out of here too.

Offline MadameDuFromage

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Re: Imprecise Language, Confusion and Conflation
« Reply #71 on: January 24, 2020, 10:43:19 AM »
Weren't we just having a discussion about tribalism?

Offline Kiera

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Re: Imprecise Language, Confusion and Conflation
« Reply #72 on: January 24, 2020, 10:50:03 AM »
. . foul to the bigoted puritanism that breeds here.

      Never heard it quite put that way Megan but if referring to "Blanchard & Bailey's" viewpoint/opinion(s) - not "scientific fact" mind you 'cause 20 years later & we're still merely grasping at straws - then gotta luv it and thank you for posting here 'cause ALL Are Indeed WELCOME!

Did ya 'ave to ask for permission?

Oh Lord, please keep Devlyn out of here . . extremist right wing

Devlyn? Was not aware of that . . and us discussing "politics" is a useless endeavor let's leave it to the "vote" in November. One cannot always censure/control what another "POSTS" but WE are in control of own "RESPONSES" or, in other words, don't wanna hear "well, they started it" BS only takes ONE adult to argument END!

(PS: lol btw if indeed into "Blanchard & Bailey" then come to the DARK SIDE we are here!)
'But it's no use now', thought poor Alice, 'to pretend to be two people'
'Why there's hardly enough of me left to make one respectable person'

( Lewis Carrolls' "Down The Rabbit Hole" )

Offline Lucy

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Re: Imprecise Language, Confusion and Conflation
« Reply #73 on: January 24, 2020, 11:40:25 AM »

And...you are absolutely wrong when you assert that "There is no more need for sex to be binary than there is for it to be locked in at birth."
Sex, male/female is by definition, binary.

As you so eloquently point out, our world is highly varied. The fact that you live in a particularly liberal, progressive, insanely delusional environment, does not mandate that the rest of us do, or God forbid, would want to.
But hey, if it ruffles your skirts, that's awesome 😀😀😀😀😵😵

Once again resorting to insults and attacks on a world view that doesn't conform to your own, because no one with a view other than yours can possibly be sane and must be utterly delusional. At no point did I say or imply you should live in a more liberal environment than you want to, I merely requested you resist the urge to demean and minimize those of us who do.

Sex is only binary if you restrict the definition to primary sex characteristics, which while valid for some purposes is pretty reductive and the existence of the secondary sex characteristics should be enough to show that common definitions of sex do in fact range into territory where sex as a whole does not have to be and is not always a binary state even beyond the obvious state of intersex.

Offline Lucy

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Re: Imprecise Language, Confusion and Conflation
« Reply #74 on: January 24, 2020, 12:08:23 PM »
Hi Lucy
I see we're back on the simple versus complex subject (^_−)−☆

You're absolutely correct in that what's between my legs has a lot to do with my social gender... in each culture I belong to. And, to be quite honest, I believe it would in yours as well if I wished to live and love there as a woman.

At least for me the existence of a penis would make that impossible even if I lived in a super prudish environment where the only one who gets to see one naked is a doctor. I'd feel I was play-acting every moment of my life. Even if I were to find a man who thought i was a woman while making love to me in absolute darkness...
The desire to live as a man or woman has relatively little meaning to me. I wish to live as me, and have a form that best supports that. As for love, I have a partner and she and I are the only people in the world who need have any concern for what is in between my legs so I have no concern with how that equipment might effect some hypothetical outside of our relationship. I understand the feel of play-acting, but for me I only feel the need for secondary sex characteristics to feel like I am honestly expressing myself rather than acting.

I have never been looked at as normal or been one to worry about fitting in too much. I couldn't fit in or blend in with the crowd if I tried and have no desire to try, so at this point in my life one more difference from the crowd makes little difference to me. I have always had a pretty even mix of male and female close friends so the idea of needing to fit in among women or men specifically makes no sense to me. I always have and always will prefer mixed groups and find it incredibly frustrating at gatherings that are larger than my close friends when they invariably begin to self segregate by gender and I end up drifting back and forth between the two groups. I don't think I will ever understand the desire to self segregate by sex or gender in most environments, but I have my social group that doesn't and others have theirs that do so we can all find our place in the world.

Online zirconia

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Re: Imprecise Language, Confusion and Conflation
« Reply #75 on: January 24, 2020, 12:29:02 PM »
It's nice that you don't need to live as a man or a woman. I really don't understand the desire to change, though, if you're fine with being what you are.

Actually, that's what I myself need—to just be a woman. I feel there is a difference between expressing myself and being what I need to be. Although to be honest I'm not quite sure what expressing myself in this context means. As for being... well, I guess it's just existing, because that's what one is.

I never was normal nor did I fit in either, you know. It's actually funny but that seems to be changing.
The feeling is akin to arriving home.

Offline Megan

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Re: Imprecise Language, Confusion and Conflation
« Reply #76 on: January 24, 2020, 12:29:34 PM »
Steal data? You are the first person to introduce themself here by mentioning the nomenclature of a widely known admin from another site.

You used a name for me that I hadn't even referred to, I'm registered with and have used my IRL name. The ONLY way you could do that would be to have stolen sensitive private data entrusted to you when in a position of authority in another place.


Your IP address is registered in the same country

You're right, there are no other Trans* people in my country... ::)


It's as safe as any website using Simple Machines software.

Which has been a source of ongoing concern for me. I have been considering swapping to a more secure forum software given what I have learned about SMF.

As a career software professional I'll tell you that the weakest point of any system is the people. The admins and staff of this site have proven they have no qualms in using privileged access along with trusted and sensitive data for their own gain.


I won't be posting again, and I don't think anyone who values their privacy should either.

Offline Lucy

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Re: Imprecise Language, Confusion and Conflation
« Reply #77 on: January 24, 2020, 12:39:56 PM »
As you so eloquently point out, our world is highly varied. The fact that you live in a particularly liberal, progressive, insanely delusional environment, does not mandate that the rest of us do, or God forbid, would want to.
But hey, if it ruffles your skirts, that's awesome 😀😀😀😀😵😵

Given the added discussion of moderation this thread has spawned due to the visit from elsewhere, I feel I should also point out that the insanely delusional comment here is the only thing in this entire thread that goes beyond good discussion into personal attacks worthy of moderation. Everything else both Complete and others have said is pretty well within the bounds of respectful, reasoned conversation.

Offline Kiera

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Re: Imprecise Language, Confusion and Conflation
« Reply #78 on: January 24, 2020, 01:43:52 PM »
Everybody has up and *scat*,

 . . .perhaps rightly so and now seems to be just "you and I"!
'But it's no use now', thought poor Alice, 'to pretend to be two people'
'Why there's hardly enough of me left to make one respectable person'

( Lewis Carrolls' "Down The Rabbit Hole" )

Offline Lucy

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Re: Imprecise Language, Confusion and Conflation
« Reply #79 on: January 24, 2020, 01:58:52 PM »
Everybody has up and *scat*,

 . . .perhaps rightly so and now seems to be just "you and I"!

Heh, I suspect most people are actually just busy at work, while I'm waiting on slow processes at work so have chunks of downtime between actively needing to do something. I actually think this thread has been a pretty good conversation so far (well, other than the derail by a visiting troublemaker).